Should illegal tube traders be banned???

vrocks · Post by **vrocks** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:56 am

I have been getting complaints from some very respected people in the industry on both sides of the coin on illegal tube sites.

So I will put it to a vote... Should having an illegal tube site here result in a ban?

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I have read your views on this topic and appreciate you all taking the time to give your input. Ultimately I referred to my ICQ log history with Jdoughs in making a determination on which route LS should take on the matter.

LS currently will not treat tubes (illegal or otherwise) any differently than any other site. This might change when Jdoughs gets back or if Congress passes a law specifically targeted at full length video tubes.

Thank you all for making LS the premier adult link trading site.

tonsilwhores · Post by **tonsilwhores** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:08 am

That's like a judge asking the people. Should I put thieves and murderers in jail?

I think asking the question, is answering it.

Ban em.

powerblogman · Post by **powerblogman** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:28 am

The problem is that banning can have such a big impact on rankings of legal sites.
I mean we can destroy good rankings, active sites.

Also I think it should not be linkspuns problem what content exists on the pages.

Hey guys it's all about link trading, not abount the content!

If somebody does not accept content it should be his own right to deny!

aliasx · Post by **aliasx** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:51 am

Not like I give a fuck how you run things or support tubes, but go easy on the admin powers. 2c

StickyGreen · Post by **StickyGreen** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:13 am

luxv66 · Post by **luxv66** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:22 am

How do you determine if a site is an illegal tube?
Of course most are obvious but what's the criteria?

webdanger · Post by **webdanger** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:14 am

V you are in way over your head, its pointless. Google ranks bestiality websites in their top 10 rankings for MAJOR "live sex" kws, its a messed up situation, you should let users decide if they want to trade or not with these websites.

sexsite69 · Post by **sexsite69** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:46 am

If your server allows goat porn, more goat-power to you. I don't think we can judge a site by the nature of the subject matter. IMO an illegal tube site is one that puts up clips or images without crediting the source and without permission. Worse yet is when people add their own watermarks on top of the content. Stolen content is like any other form of piracy, it hurts the people who originally produced the stuff.

Sites who should be legitimately concerned about this are the ones making their own content. Make sure your 2257 records are up to date and put a proper watermark on all your content. I think the linkspun admin is within their rights to challenge the ownership of your content, but not the subject matter. If you like being the webmaster for scat sites, good for you, and that may all be well and legal. Linkspun should only be concerned if you are using graphics and videos that do NOT grant you the right to display them for profit. The linkspun admin should also not interfere with legitimate sponsors and their individual terms of use.

IMO if the linkspun team suspects a site is using content without permission, they should contact the content's producers. For example if you see a site blatantly putting up full length twistys content, but linking to some other non-twistys stuff then you should alert twistys. They are they only ones who can verify if the content is theirs and if there is a break in the terms of service. From there, a domain blacklist can be created and possibly shared between the sponsors and the linkspun team. You can probably even charge the sponsor a small fee or get some backlinks from them for this reporting / blacklisting update service. Why not?

Just my 2 cents.

DrakeStone · Post by **DrakeStone** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:09 am

What is illegal in country A is not necessarily illegal in country B. What is immoral in community A is not necessarily immoral in community B. Linkspun should ask themselves, "Do we want to police the world, or do we want to offer link services?"

Furthermore, if you’re truly concerned about perceived legalities, then you should allow the links. Sites like linkspun serve as a hub that bring sites of all genre together in one centralized location. This allows officials to locate and address such sites in a more efficient manner. To ban the sites would essentially make it more difficult for the appropriate authorities to address the issue.

vrocks · Post by **vrocks** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:16 am

The problem I have with it personally is I don't like people using our service to outrank me with stolen content. Just because a lot of people are doing it, that doesn't make it OK.

From a business point of view... And I am in the adult business... It hurts our business model to give away full length videos for free. Plain and simple. Tubes are able to game the system so many ways in SEO that a legitimate webmaster does not have access to.

The user I put on a ban currently has nothing to offer the adult community. His site was basically loaded with nothing but illegally obtained videos...

Let me tell you a story. When I first started in porn I didn't have any design skills. I still don't. So I created a web site that looked almost exactly like a popular site out there. I learned a bit of SEO and became #2 for his sites name. It was a moderately busy TGP. I instantly saw my traffic go from 0 to about 15K a day. I was getting trade offers from big TGP's that thought I was the TGP I had copied.

That month I think I made around $2K in sales and I thought it was pretty fucking cool...

Then I started getting ICQ's from the other webmasters and the one I had copied. They slammed me on the boards and my TGP went from 0 to 15K to 50K to 4K... I even got Emails from surfers that were not happy I had copied the other site they intended to go to.

I switched up the sites look and created some new TGP's. I built up my own 150K in traffic without having to copy someone else' shit. I added to the community instead of taking from it. I made more money and I built up friendships with the same TGP's that had shunned me months earlier. After a year or two the owner of the original TGP actually hit me up for trades!

When I look at this new guy and what he did it reminds me of my old self. A nube doing something without any added benefit to the community. Stealing someone else's hard work and making money off of it. I was ashamed when I did it and I think he should be ashamed now.

vrocks · Post by **vrocks** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:20 am

DrakeStone wrote:What is illegal in country A is not necessarily illegal in country B. What is immoral in community A is not necessarily immoral in community B. Linkspun should ask themselves, "Do we want to police the world, or do we want to offer link services?"

Furthermore, if you’re truly concerned about perceived legalities, then you should allow the links. Sites like linkspun serve as a hub that bring sites of all genre together in one centralized location. This allows officials to locate and address such sites in a more efficient manner. To ban the sites would essentially make it more difficult for the appropriate authorities to address the issue.

I don't condone having sex with 12yo girls... I don't condone child prostitution. I don't condone sex slave trafficking. I don't condone heroin... All things that might not be illegal in some countries. Yes, having a moral compass is sometimes needed. If it weren't we'd all be speaking German or Japanese right now.

123anddone · Post by **123anddone** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:12 am

Hmm, i think only domain has to be removed from system and if you are linking to it system should make that he has removed link so you remove his and stop trade.

I'm 110% against that crap like pornhub, because it ruins our surfers, and whole market that surfers now want to get full free videos instead of buying even trail membership to see them.

and it hurts when all big sites that are grands in industry keeps away from this copy cat times.

p.s. this is my personal opinion

snakex · Post by **snakex** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:54 am

So Vrocks you think that these webmasters may did it because they dont know?like you at beginning?
I dont think so from my own experience...i still remember a young french before many years that was trading with my cj sites and always trying new weird methods to steal traffic and clicks.
I called him cheater at ICQ.His name was Nophest.
After trying many things to steal traffic he found his way to illegal tubes.
He found me again after 5-6 years and laughed at me because i called him cheater.I was at normal tgps hard working and he was very succesful easily with his shit tubes you know.
Cheater will be always a cheater...i dont believe that someone these days doesnt know that big length videos ruin our biz our surfers and our hard work.

Dont give your hard earned SE traffic to such tubes and sponsors that keep them still alive

teenlivesex · Post by **teenlivesex** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:19 am

we are here for link exchange, not to judge. we should accept all kind of sites. i think that this is not our problem.

diablom · Post by **diablom** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:30 am

I think only domain should be banned. Removing all user domains may bring big impact on us all and lost rankings.

illegal tube = full or stolen videos for free (not goat sex, as somebody mentioned

) = Piracy

webdanger · Post by **webdanger** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:37 am

I google doesn't give a shit, it's useless for V or whoever wants to police them.

anexsia · Post by **anexsia** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:49 am

I'm totally all for banning them, that's my personal opinion. I look at Link Spun as a community, all of us trading here are helping each other out by helping our sites become bigger, better, and rank higher...and I'm sure many here DON'T own illegal tubes and wouldn't want to trade with any either.

And like your story vrocks, I could have made a bunch of illegal tubes and probably brought in a lot of money and had a much easier time getting traffic but instead I chose to go the blog network route and build up something that I'm not ashamed of and know I built from the ground up that isn't illegal.

Livesexcam · Post by **Livesexcam** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:59 am

vrocks wrote: When I look at this new guy and what he did it reminds me of my old self. A nube doing something without any added benefit to the community. Stealing someone else's hard work and making money off of it. I was ashamed when I did it and I think he should be ashamed now.

I belive many of us startet with some not perfect Ideas and i belive many of us older ones have many experience with stolen content.

In my home country where i live till 2005 is a big discussion about porn in the internet. When ever i read something about it its every time the same CP and Stolen Videos. Our whole Industrie get criminalized. They call us criminals even if we build only contact or cam sites.

My Vote was bann the site but give the webmaster a chance.

fetishbank · Post by **fetishbank** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:03 am

I say:

Ban for sites in bad faith
Warning for sites in good faith

seomedia · Post by **seomedia** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:25 pm

So you're gonna ban the Crak guys, the dutch dudes from freeporn and God knows how many more? You're gonna take down hundreds of thousands of link trades, that nearly all of us have made with these members? or is this just a law where the little guys get hit and you give a free pass to the big guys? Because the moment you start executing this law of yours I will post a list of so called "illegal" tubes that members are pushing here on LS and we'll see how you act on that.
If you want to destroy LS go ahead.
By the way I don't own, run or handle any tubes.

tropicool · Post by **tropicool** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:55 pm

No need to ban the accounts, but rather warn the user in question and ban the sites.

Tropicool

vrocks · Post by **vrocks** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:09 pm

seomedia wrote:So you're gonna ban the Crak guys, the dutch dudes from freeporn and God knows how many more? You're gonna take down hundreds of thousands of link trades, that nearly all of us have made with these members? or is this just a law where the little guys get hit and you give a free pass to the big guys? Because the moment you start executing this law of yours I will post a list of so called "illegal" tubes that members are pushing here on LS and we'll see how you act on that.
If you want to destroy LS go ahead.
By the way I don't own, run or handle any tubes.

How would it destroy LS? Tubes would have to go elsewhere... I don't have massive link trades with illegal tubes... I'd imagine perhaps 2 might have squeaked by out of 1500 trades...

Referencing the trades of one of the above mentioned traders:

470 total trades in the system
104 are active
293 denied
50 or so requests
rest are waiting for links...

So in reality only about 160 or so trades will be effected out of the 203,000+ in active status (counting stacks as 1 trade).

Seems to me that these guys will cost about 5% of us 3% work total... The other 95% that never traded with them in the first place won't have to do anything substantial.

seomedia · Post by **seomedia** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:18 pm

Instead of wasting time on an issue that would kill this service, maybe you should focus on answering emails and assisting members that have had their accounts hacked that you didn't follow up on.

blogstargirl · Post by **blogstargirl** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:27 pm

Only in relation to sites that are featuring animals, this is how it impacts you if you are in the US and even Linkspun which is hosted in the US as far as I still know... These were posts from last year (copy&pasted with some updates based on current events)

Post (1)
When I started this thread, I wasn't stating that the b-word was universally illegal. Relative to this site, it's the jurisdiction it falls under. It's illegal in the US where Linkspun site's server is located (San Diego CA).

Post (2)
Yes, deliberately linking to an "obscene" site would be. Obscenity laws in the US are very subjective depending on who wants to interpret material as obscene and spend the money to prosecute. The b-word, there would no question on obscene or illegal here. A webmaster or webmistress would be viewed as sending the traffic to an obscene, illegal site.

I don't know how much you read about the US from Spain, but it's becoming a very puritannical place to work in the adult biz, with one politician (Michele Bachmann) vowing to purge the whole country of porn if she's elected President. (update: and now Rick Santorum is vowing the same)

As a webmaster or webmistress, you can disclaim in writing that you have no control over the material contained in websites you link to, but if at the time you linked, you knew that the content was illegal or technically obscene, big troubles.

http://www.adultinternetlaw.com/articles/link_legal.php

seomedia · Post by **seomedia** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:36 pm

...also, Let me please "suggest" at this point that you ban all the turks that have German cam sites that have invaded this service and have placed in their signature "Trade only with German sites", place them in the "Non English category or ban them.

Hincapie · Post by **Hincapie** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:43 pm

Im not aware if I have any trades with illegal tubes ... but I voted "no" to a ban. Simply put, if a ban isnt strictly necessary I dont think it should be put in place.

As a paysite owner, we use a company to enforce our copyrights & DMCA violators ... but in the case of tubes its rarely black/white - most tubes who feature material responds positively to a mail asking them to properly link or remove the material, most have the option of webmaster accounts with proper linking etc. In this sense, unlike say the blogs featuring full movie downloads or siterips, the tubes often pay for what "loan" by sending sales ... at least thats our experience.

Bilinda · Post by **Bilinda** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:09 pm

I think any illegal tube site owner should be banned here, simple as that. However what is NOT simple is knowing just what is a legal or illegal one. Really, it's damn hard to know what ones are using videos with a sponsors permission and what ones are not.

So if you somehow really KNOW of anyone who has an illegal tube, then ban him. Nobody should want their link on that site anyways. But I'll be damn if I can see how you tell the legal ones from illegal ones.

vrocks · Post by **vrocks** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:19 pm

seomedia wrote:Instead of wasting time on an issue that would kill this service, maybe you should focus on answering emails and assisting members that have had their accounts hacked that you didn't follow up on.

This is the first I have heard of such a thing.

I have not received any Emails at my Gmail address and there are none in the support address either.

vrocks · Post by **vrocks** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:23 pm

seomedia wrote:...also, Let me please "suggest" at this point that you ban all the turks that have German cam sites that have invaded this service and have placed in their signature "Trade only with German sites", place them in the "Non English category or ban them.

You have over 500 users blocked. I think I will just ask people that request such a thing if they'd like me to copy your blocked list over to their own.

cyberhustler · Post by **cyberhustler** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:32 pm

My little insignificant vote has been made...

Twopoint · Post by **Twopoint** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:49 pm

Well I don't mind the ban providing its only illegal tubes. All of our tubes are fully legal and comply with all laws. We have our own partner content program located at: http://www.addyourcontent.com which we encourage content owners to use.

I would like to know how your going to police this though?

seomedia · Post by **seomedia** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:05 pm

vrocks wrote:
seomedia wrote:...also, Let me please "suggest" at this point that you ban all the turks that have German cam sites that have invaded this service and have placed in their signature "Trade only with German sites", place them in the "Non English category or ban them.
You have over 500 users blocked. I think I will just ask people that request such a thing if they'd like me to copy your blocked list over to their own.

I miss Jon!

vrocks · Post by **vrocks** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:22 pm

I think we all do... But he wouldn't have done anything different with the Germans now than he did before. I always just suggested people use their block list.

PornGuy · Post by **PornGuy** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:22 pm

vrocks wrote:The problem I have with it personally is I don't like people using our service to outrank me with stolen content. Just because a lot of people are doing it, that doesn't make it OK.

From a business point of view... And I am in the adult business... It hurts our business model to give away full length videos for free. Plain and simple. Tubes are able to game the system so many ways in SEO that a legitimate webmaster does not have access to.

The user I put on a ban currently has nothing to offer the adult community. His site was basically loaded with nothing but illegally obtained videos...

Let me tell you a story. When I first started in porn I didn't have any design skills. I still don't. So I created a web site that looked almost exactly like a popular site out there. I learned a bit of SEO and became #2 for his sites name. It was a moderately busy TGP. I instantly saw my traffic go from 0 to about 15K a day. I was getting trade offers from big TGP's that thought I was the TGP I had copied.

That month I think I made around $2K in sales and I thought it was pretty fucking cool...

Then I started getting ICQ's from the other webmasters and the one I had copied. They slammed me on the boards and my TGP went from 0 to 15K to 50K to 4K... I even got Emails from surfers that were not happy I had copied the other site they intended to go to.

I switched up the sites look and created some new TGP's. I built up my own 150K in traffic without having to copy someone else' shit. I added to the community instead of taking from it. I made more money and I built up friendships with the same TGP's that had shunned me months earlier. After a year or two the owner of the original TGP actually hit me up for trades!

When I look at this new guy and what he did it reminds me of my old self. A nube doing something without any added benefit to the community. Stealing someone else's hard work and making money off of it. I was ashamed when I did it and I think he should be ashamed now.

I spend many hours every week sending out DMCA's to different sites to get my content down. they are taking it and removing the watermarks and often adding their own. and I can tell you right now its not hard to find my content and know who the owner is.

Ban them!

seomedia · Post by **seomedia** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:26 pm

vrocks wrote:I think we all do... But he wouldn't have done anything different with the Germans now than he did before. I always just suggested people use their block list.

So why don't you suggest people to use their block list on the tubes? That wouldn't kill LS and it would take the same effect, please prove me wrong!

dbxxx03 · Post by **dbxxx03** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:01 pm

Less regulation = better for business. Let the market and site owners decide whats best.

greenguy · Post by **greenguy** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:07 pm

I hate ALL tube sites, but that's just my personal opinion. I think that, even the "legal" ones teach the surfer that they can get a shitload of free movies in one place & never bother to buy a membership...unless it's to the tube site's "premium" area.

I refuse to link to them & deny trades every day in here, even though it clearly states on my profile that I will not trade with them. However, I will take inbound links from tube sites - I have no problem taking traffic away from them

I voted for #2 because, like on my board, I know a lot of webmasters have sites that my community frowns upon, but they are still good webmasters.

On a personal note to vrocks, I can completely see the situation you're in & easily compare it with how I run my board. I base the rules on my board on my personal opinions/feelings. My board used to be hugely popular, but I know that I have alienated many webmasters because of how I run things. The number of active posters has dwindled down to about 10% of what I had back in the day. But, I will say that those 10% that do still post were (and still are) the core of my community. I would not trade them for all the webmasters GFY has - numbers mean shit to me - quality over quantity has always been my motto.

I guess what I'm trying to say is be careful what rules you enforce, especially those based on personal opinions/feelings. While I agree 100% with what you're doing, it does have the potential to be one of those "slippery slope" kind things.

In closing, I'd just like to reiterate: FUCK TUBES!

liquider · Post by **liquider** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:13 pm

I don't care either way. ...

theepiczone · Post by **theepiczone** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:56 pm

I also do not care either way. I tend to deny tube site trades almost every time whether they are illegal or not and will continue to do so regardless of what action you take.

seomedia · Post by **seomedia** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:02 pm

theepiczone wrote:I also do not care either way. I tend to deny tube site trades almost every time whether they are illegal or not and will continue to do so regardless of what action you take.

Thats right and this is why this poll is worthless

Leks911 · Post by **Leks911** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:18 pm

Guys, I think that we should not ban illegal tubes on linkspun. I have a very negative attitude to such sites, as they spoil the business many of us! I will explain why you should not ban such here - every webmaster has his principles and moral qualities. to me just unacceptable trade with these sites, so that all such requests, I decline. if the webmaster has principles - he would not deal with illegal tubes! I think everyone here has the right to decide for themselves with what sites to exchange links, but with what is not - that's the essence of democracy and freedom of choice ...

PS competent webmasters would never have to deal with this crap! No restrictions are not needed for this

ristac · Post by **ristac** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:26 pm

Total of 72% vote for a ban of one kind or another. If a tube site is illegal what difference does it make to anything else illegal? You don't permit beastiality, kp, incest, illegal is illegal.

greenguy · Post by **greenguy** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:28 pm

seomedia wrote:Thats right and this is why this poll is worthless

This poll/thread is FAR from worthless. vrocks could have easily just banned the "illegal" tube sites & that would have been it. Now, we, as a community, have a say in deciding what should be done.

But, in the end, the ultimate decision will be vrocks & I for one think it's a great idea to get our input on this & any future controversial subjects.

seomedia · Post by **seomedia** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:35 pm

greenguy wrote:
seomedia wrote:Thats right and this is why this poll is worthless
This poll/thread is FAR from worthless. vrocks could have easily just banned the "illegal" tube sites & that would have been it. Now, we, as a community, have a say in deciding what should be done.

But, in the end, the ultimate decision will be vrocks & I for one think it's a great idea to get our input on this & any future controversial subjects.

You saying that this thread is FAR from being worthless
Your saying that now, we, as a community, have a say in deciding what should be done.
Your saying that in the end, the ultimate decision will be vrocks
Make your mind up dude!!!

seomedia · Post by **seomedia** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:38 pm

ristac wrote:Total of 72% vote for a ban of one kind or another. If a tube site is illegal what difference does it make to anything else illegal? You don't permit beastiality, kp, incest, illegal is illegal.

Quoted the truth and if vrocks wants to be so moralist he needs to check some webmasters sites and ban them for "rape, incest and cp and lets add the .xxx to that list. So Greenguy this is why this thread is worthless!

greenguy · Post by **greenguy** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:44 pm

snakex · Post by **snakex** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:56 pm

hmmm...someone is getting really mad here...Why?

vrocks · Post by **vrocks** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:00 pm

seomedia wrote:
ristac wrote:Total of 72% vote for a ban of one kind or another. If a tube site is illegal what difference does it make to anything else illegal? You don't permit beastiality, kp, incest, illegal is illegal.
Quoted the truth and if vrocks wants to be so moralist he needs to check some webmasters sites and ban them for "rape, incest and cp and lets add the .xxx to that list. So Greenguy this is why this thread is worthless!

We do ban for cp... rape? Show me a site with real snuff film rape and not simulated hazeher stuff... As for incest... Show me real families and not simulated again... MoutherDaughterFuck.com isn't real moms and daughters, and the mom and daughter actresses don't have sex with each other...

As for .xxx... Yeah... considering that one too.

vrocks · Post by **vrocks** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:02 pm

snakex wrote:hmmm...someone is getting really mad here...Why?

Because he works with/for/at a company that deals with running illegal tubes. Whether that be maintaining them or just performing their SEO work I dunno...

CodeR70 · Post by **CodeR70** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:25 pm

I think Linkspun if about link exchange and not about policing the internet. I have great trust in it's community about exchanging the links. But to be honest, most of the community members, including many admins and other "professionals", are completely ignorant about many of these legality topics.

So no, it's not any of Linkspuns admins business to have sites be banned on "possible" legality issues of such site. CP would be the only exception IMHO, the rest is up to the link partners and/or authorities.

TBH, it already irritates me that an admin thinks this is so important that he decided to put a notice on the Linkspun screens. Ignorance or arrogance, I dont know. Clueless at least IMHO.